Atari Assault Sideart. Gauging Interest?

[DarkKniyt]

Response From John

OK folks, I try to run my business professionally but, Sweet Jesus & Mary!
There are so many posts on this thread I don't know where to begin?
So let me try to answer some of the questions, comments, digs, cudos, slaps in the face, etc...

I realize KLOV, unlike BYOAC is centered more around the "Preserve The Authenticity" crowd. I understand and Respect that.
But, there are numerous folks here that are the following:
"Preserve The Authenticity" - When Available, When Affordable, When and If I Care To.
That's their right.

When I first started offering my services it was a direct response to artwork not being available or too expensive for My Cabs.
I wanted a finished cab. I would have loved to have had screen-printed & glass, etc.
In one case, it just wasn't available.
In the others it was cost.
So I purchased a printer and printed my own and offered the alternative to others.

Many of you are willing to pay the premium for an exact replica/screen-print of the art you want, IF it's available.
That's your right to do so. If that's what you want that, then get that.
Some folks aren't willing to pay that premium for screen-printed, or are not willing to wait for it.

I did not start doing what I'm doing here with the intent to directly compete with the folks who do screen-printing.
What these businesses do is fantastic and I will never be able to compete with that authenticity. I don't want to.
But let's all be honest here, they are servicing one select group of people.
As was posted here, the "Serious Collectors".

I know there are some out there that "look down there noses" at this and at me (and Bob too I guess).
So be it. All that I can say to that is wait for the Screen-Printed art if you choose.
I don't think it's fair in the least bit to "Beat Up" on or Degrade me, Bob or anyone else who wants a quality piece of artwork for their cab.

I've had numerous folks, on this forum, who have had no problem accepting my repro art-work when it was given away for free, and no one chimed in to raise cane about it.
And just to set the record straight before it's even mentioned, any work I do on cabinet artwork, I make freely available to ALL arcade enthusiasts, for free.
I believe in the principles that most of us believe, this art needs to be preserved and shared freely. I still like to make money same as everyone else, I'm no saint, but the art itself should be available to all.
So, Forgive my little DIG here, but are the Films available for me or others to use? If I had these I could do an exact reproduction of the MANY pieces of art that are no where to be found!
Yes, I would be printing them on that "Inkjet Stuff", but the artwork would be available to everyone!

I know that reproducing artwork from films and having them screen-printed is a long and costly endeavor.
Again, I respect and honor the work that goes into it.
Just don't think that because this is what you want that others aren't interested in something else.

I have to say, and truly meaning no disrespect, but there are many people in this "Hobby" that do look down their noses at those of us that aren't considered a "Part Of The Club" or a "Serious Collector".
Case In Point: "CHEAPER INKJET STUFF".
All I ask is that I/We get the respect that we give & deserve.

As far as the CPO art. If you prefer screen-printed, buy screen-printed. I am just offering an alternative.

It was Posted:
"Please, please hang on and purchase the screen printed CPOs. I'd really like to do a few other new projects this year, but if nobody is buying them or buying cheaper inkjet stuff I just can't justify making the investment."

I appreciate the feelings in this post and understand it. But as another post said "I would never buy inkjet stuff if the screened was available".
Again I'll say, if you want screen-printed, wait and purchase it. But please don't use me as the scapegoat for a screen-printing not being done.
If someone chooses to buy my "Inkjet Stuff" then evidently they're not THAT "Serious of a Collector". Right?

Gauging Interest. "Gauging Interest" always means "Notice Of Intent".
I'm not the first person here to use "Gauging Interest" as a post title.
And we all know what that means!

As for who is doing what, I have no clear idea, same as most everyone else.
I will say that if I was aware that the side-art was in the works to be sreen-printed, that would not, will not change my belief that there are others who prefer a less expensive, albeit maybe less "professional" (in your opinion) piece of artwork.
But that "Cheaper Inkjet Stuff" is not cheaper and I resent the implication.
Is it less expensive? Yes.
Is the artwork an exact reproduction? Sometimes. Depends if the artwork/films/vectors are available or can be recreated.
Is it an exact replica of the original? No.
Does anyone care? Some Do, Some Don't.

I would like to say one more thing about the artwork "Films".
These are "Owned" by someone.
This someone has NOT made these available to this community, for free.
A piece now and then makes it's way to a company to ultimately be screen-printed.
Once this is done, is the artwork made available to everyone? No, it's not. Unless you buy the screen-printed art.
I have personally offered to pay/trade/beg for the use of some of these films - I've never received a response.
So let's be honest, these films are there to make someone some money.
I'm defintly on board with making some money. Just like you!
But again, please don't look down at me or my artists or other members for spending long hours doing the best repro job we can.
And then making it freely available to everyone.
But, just in case, let me ask the question once again....

To The Owner Of These And Any Films:
Can I purchase, lease, trade or use your films for creating reproductions of the artwork?
I will see that:
The artwork is reproduced faithfully.
Is made freely available to the community.
I will try to make some money off of it by offering for sale my "Cheaper Inkjet Stuff".
I will gladly direct the "Serious Collector" to the screen-printers for the Not-Cheaper stuff.

I would also ask in the future, if someone has any issues with me or what I am doing, send me an email or PM.
Please don't use my post or the forum as a forum for complaints or arguments.
Most all of us are adults, let's act like it.
If you know me, you know that I have actually pulled back on doing some artwork and
even sales of some artwork because someone else was already doing it or felt they had the right to do it first.
I do my best to keep my customers, forum friends & the community happy with what I'm doing.
So email or PM me, please.

Thank You,
John Shad
Basement Arcade GrafX

 

[joeycuda]

John,

Some of the ill feelings towards the 'cheaper inkjet' art comes from the fact that there's a long history in this hobby and the pinball one of people being disappointed by the stuff. It's just been recently that I've seen the solvent inkjet stuff being considered acceptable and good enough quality for a restoration.

There was an outfit called ArcadeGrafix making all kinds of crap, years ago, by buying the screened repros, scanning them, then printing them on a big plotter - sideart, playfield overlays, etc.. For some, like the overlays, this was the only option people had, so some bought it. It was overall a bad experience for many and the makers didn't back up the work.

Fact is, much of the Atari stuff worth reproducing will likely be done using the original films from this point. Available for use or not, I think the stuff pretty much belongs in a museum or archive.

 

[fatherpain]

John,
I've been on these boards for awhile and usually refrain from engaging in "drama" or negativity. But you guys truly have your heads up your ass, on this "crusade" to save our "hobby" from the "insiders".

first, the art films in question have been on loan for free as a service to the arcade community. However, the owner(s) aren't just going to lend out literally irreplaceable artwork to just any yahoo that comes along. These are going to people that are known and trusted. If that makes us Evil insiders, Sorry, but I think this is just common sense. Its kinda ironic to be lumped in with the "insiders" as I still feel like a newbie myself.

Is this an example of what you're railing against: I recently paid $250 for a perfect condition NOS spyhunter cpo. In turn, I sent this to Rich@Thisoldgame to scan for a future silkscreened repro to help out my fellow spyhunter collectors. Being an "insider", I could have selfishly just applied the darn thing, post pics and let everyone else eat their heart out seeing a perfect Spyhunter Control panel with no hope of upgrading theirs (well ok I'll still post pics However I sent mine out for FREE asking nothing in return. Either Rich@thisoldgame or Anthony@quarterarcade will do the run, its still to be determined. Either way, the price for a silkscreened CPO will probably fall somewhere between $45 and $65 depends who does it. If you and Bob are railing against the evils of a $45-65 silkscreened perfect CPO, you guys really are in the wrong hobby. The guys doing quality art repro work can't do it for free. Besides being a labour of love, which ThisOldGame, Quarterarcade and PhoenixArcade obviously are, there has to be some incentive to invest the time and money to fund a run of art. And what if they get stuck with a bunch of art that doesn't sell? I have friends that literally have spent thousands getting runs of artwork done, not to profit, but just to get the art repro'ed to help make it available to others.

or this: The Commando HSS kit project I'm generating interest for. I've spent time obtaining trying to obtain the 15 needed pre-buys to make it worthwhile for the producers of High Score save kits to invest the time, energy and resources to make this happen. I haven't made it public, in hopes of obtaining the target pre-buys, but I've committed to funding whatever we end up being short. If its 5 kits short, then I will fork over 5 x $45 = $225 + the cost of my kit $45 when we reach the deadline. In addition, I bought a commando Pcb from Quarterarcade and sent it to the kit producers, for free, so they'd have a pcb to base the kit on. My insider reward? Nothing. My profit is absolutely nothing. I will buy the kit like everyone else when its available. The benefit to me is I get a high score save kit for game I love that otherwise wouldnt get made.

or better this: The Assault CPO art films on loan to Anthony@Quarterarcade. These were borrowed from the owner of the films for free and sent free to be reproed. The person that sent the films, has a NOS Assault CPO applied on his machine so has ZERO self interest for a repro to happen. He took time out of his busy life to pack up the films, mail it out and assume responsibility in case anything happens to them (the films are on loan to him) to help all the other fellow Assault owners (including me). I'll be sending my stripped cp to Anthony soon so they can get the texture and sizing correct. Anthony is asking for you not to run the CPO's because he is about to fund the run which will be expensive and doesn't wish to be stuck with unmovable product and unrecoverable expenditure. This has been in the works for several months, well before you're interest check thread.

I apologize for the rant, but it irks me that 2 Boneheads (albeit well intentioned), have the nerve to spout about doing things to help the community and rail against the "insiders" of the hobby that are "profiteering" on the masses, as if they have everything figured out. I don't think the profit margins are as high as you may think, when you consider the time that's involved. I personally think guys like Rich charge too little for their stuff, but they are here to help the hobby. The guys you're disrespecting have contributed WAY more for our hobby in the years preceding your arrival and hopefully will continue to do so well into the future.

Word of advice: In the future you might want to ask around to see if you're not duplicating projects that are already in the works. These guys don't step on each other's toes. Posting a short duration interest check thread in the restorations forums, where traffic is minimal...just isn't going to be seen and you might also try posting for a longer duration. Hell, I just happened upon this thread by chance, because I'm following a Berzerk Restoration. I don't normally visit this forum subsection. You'd have better luck posting to see if there is interest or potential conflict in General Discussion or the Sales Forums. You'd have better success reaching the people you want for this type of thing.

My take is go ahead and make whatever stuff you're working on. Some people may want a low cost alternative, others will not. That's their choice. However, you're attitude towards others that make valuable contributions to the hobby in the interest of tire kicking or impatience, is exactly what's wrong with our hobby.

uggh, I can't believe I took time away from fixing my Frontline to respond to this thread, but enough is enough.
My apologies to any tire kickers I may have offended with this post

Tom

 

[DarkKniyt]

Fatherpain,

Thank you for that enlightening post.
It reminded me also, again, why I've always refrained from "drama" on these boards.
Folks will always undoudbtably read what they want to in a post.

I am not on any kind of crusade.
I did not make the statements containing the words "Serious Collector", "Cheaper Inkjet Stuff", Gauging Interest" etc...
I just referenced them as they were made to specifically belittle me/my business, etc.

It's very obvious that all of this drama could have easily been avoided with a simple email or pm to me directly.
But folks chose to and continue to air their issues on this post.
A simple email from one of the concerned here about the CPO, specifically from Anthony and I would have gladly withdrew my offer to print them.
I'm not here to intentionally step on toes and the last thing I want to see is guys like Anthony stop doing what they're doing.

I'm a part of this community and up to this time, my reputation and work has been immpecable.
So you'll have to forgive me for defending myself, my business and my position from slurs and slander.
And yes, comments like "Cheaper Inkjet Stuff", "Gauging Interest", "Boneheads", "Heads Up Your.." are slurs and slander.

I do my best to read and search these forums numerous times each day.
The last thing I want is to "step on toes" and upset the community or any one person.
But I won't always read all relevant posts to the searches I make so I will miss some things.
There have been a couple of instances where I have "stepped on toes" unintentionally.
When I received mature, adult responses via email or pm's informing of this, I gladly removed my offers and will continue to do so.
So again I'll say, a simple email to me, or Bob for that matter would have made a whole world of difference.
Had I been given the consideration and respect of an email or pm, at the very least I would have pulled my offer.

I apologize for taking exception to being basically told in a public forum for all to read that I'm "Evil" (yes, my word), because of what I'm doing.

I also take exception to words being put into my mouth.
"However, you're attitude towards others that make valuable contributions to the hobby in the interest
of tire kicking or impatience, is exactly what's wrong with our hobby."

My attitude? Let's be honest. It was the attitude towards Bob and myself and others "like us" that began this drama.
I've made it very clear what my "attitude" is towards others.
I've had nothing but kind words and applause for those who give their time and efforts here.
If defending my reputation from the things that have been said here is considered "attitude" towards others,
then please forgive me as that was not my intention.
I'll repeat what I've said here and in other posts on this forum and other forums.
The guys who give their time and efforts are to be applauded.
If you want a less expensive alternative, see me or one of the other inkjet print companies.
But if you want the best possible reproduction, see "Quarter", or "This Old" or "Stencils" etc...
There have been more than one of my posts where I have personally sent a person to these guys because of what the customer was looking for.

The point I was trying to make in regards to the Films was not worded very well and was in all honesty a dig. I'm apologize for that.
The point I was/am trying to make is that there are "owners" of these films.
They are not readily available to just anyone.
I agree that they are too valuable to just be handed out to any person who wants the use of them.
I wouldn't do that if I owned them.
And you are correct in your statement that I don't know profit margins, loaned for free, etc. and should not have made that statement.
But the fact is, these films are not readily available to the community.
This inturn means folks will have to be patient while waiting for the one(s) they want to be reproduced.
And the decision on which one(s) get reproduced is the sole decision of the owners of these films.
That's fine in itself, but please don't disparage those whom you consider impatient if they choose not to wait.
Sometimes for years, if ever.

As for "Tire Kickers" and the references to it, that statement in itself is offensive.
And the profane references to myself or the "others" that are on a "crusade" is uncalled for.
It's obvious your very passionate about this issue and this hobby.

Let me apologize now for anything I've said here that may be taken as railing against the serious collector.
I am NOT, railing against anyone.
I have my position and my reputation and if in trying to protect/defend those I offended anyone else - again, my apologies.

Anthony, Out of respect for you and the hard work you do, I am withdrawing my the offer of printing the CPO.

I will still be offering the sideart as the artist, myself and Bob have put quite a bit of time into it.

Thank You,
John Shad
Basement Arcade GrafX

 

[Xyla]

I don't think the inkjet printing is what concerns me the most... if I'm understanding what I've read so far, this new side art isn't scanned from anything, its an artist's rendition based on a photographs of an Assault cabinet?

No offense intended, but it disturbs me that there are going to be Assaults on the market in the future with wonky inaccurate side art. I'm truly sorry that so much effort has gone into this project already, but wouldn't it be better just to pull the plug and wait for the NOS scanned & silk screened repros rather than diluting the market with weird versions of the art?

I know If I bought an Assault in a few years and later was staring at the side of my new game thinking "hmmm something seems off..." I'd be pretty disappointed once I figured out what happened.

I actually have an Assault in need of side art, but I'm going to have to be patient. That said, it would be nice to at least get a very rough estimate for when the scanned & screened repros will be available so people know there is an end in sight to the wait.

 

[robgest]

I don't think the inkjet printing is what concerns me the most... if I'm understanding what I've read so far, this new side art isn't scanned from anything, its an artist's rendition based on a photographs of an Assault cabinet?

No offense intended, but it disturbs me that there are going to be Assaults on the market in the future with wonky inaccurate side art. I'm truly sorry that so much effort has gone into this project already, but wouldn't it be better just to pull the plug and wait for the NOS scanned & silk screened repros rather than diluting the market with weird versions of the art?

I know If I bought an Assault in a few years and later was staring at the side of my new game thinking "hmmm something seems off..." I'd be pretty disappointed once I figured out what happened.

I actually have an Assault in need of side art, but I'm going to have to be patient. That said, it would be nice to at least get a very rough estimate for when the scanned & screened repros will be available so people know there is an end in sight to the wait.

As John and myself has said before, this sideart is only offered up because people like myself who enjoy bringing machines back from the dead do not wish to wait till someone else makes it. When was the last time that Assault sideart was sold? How long have people wanted the sideart? When will the sideart be ready? Two-three years ago people wanted art but none was ready to sell, so I do not want to wait another 2,3,4 years to have my game look good. I love the work that silkscreeners give us and yes, that is the best way to go. But I enjoy the fact that if I want something NOW, John can give it to me. How many things in this hobby are not exact matches for the NOS? Ya, thats right....a lot! So, why is it that Johns stuff has to be exact but other parts do not? Also, have you noticed that John has done everything in his power to mention that people have a choice.
This is my last post to this thread about this drama. From now on people can buy John's work or wait for screened stuff.....they have a choice.
Thank you, to all the people that make any and all kinds of products.

 

[channelmanic]

There will always be a need for mulitple levels of price and quality in any marketplace - and by quality I'm referring to screened vs. ink jet.

I enjoy a good game and I like it to look nice. I'm not a person willing to drop massive amounts of money into a cab since I'll play it for awhile then will just let it be sold off just to put a different game in place.

Now with that said, I don't go around buying the cheapest of anything/everything. Sometimes I just have to have the best - other times I don't. This isn't to say anything cheap isn't "the best" or isn't of "quality"... it's just a reference to price points in the marketplace.

I work on a product team in the email security world. We consider ourselves the best but there is always room for a different product offering. We don't like it, but hey, we are priced on the high side so we see people come in the market just on price. Others are there too and have specific niches they are in which they provide a product for that fits their customer needs.

There will always be a market for the ink jet products. Hell, I'd be willing to bet that some of the more serious collectors even have a piece somewhere in their collection - whether now or in the past - that they put on just to keep from having a naked game until they could get something silk screened.

RJ

 

[joeycuda]

My concern with your inkjet work would be that it will fade. We have a giant HP plotter at work, but those inks just tend to fade with exposure to light.

 

[ThisOldGame]

The cpos were posted for interest back in March and the films were sent to anthony 2 months later after proper interest had grown
http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=173885&highlight=assault&page=11
theres no way you couldve missed this as it followed panels being made by Troy as well
Sideart was also discussed in other threads.

posting an "interest list" in a subsection and waiting a week to see if anyone posted
and was warned films were being looked for and that it was in the works to happen
So rather than wait or ask you continued to move forward and this is over just days.
there are several people involved with this so untill all the info came together it was not going to be annouced overnight.

Yes some repros arnt picture perfect even with films or NOS but its the best
results your going to get.
reproductions are 2 things 1 your trying to match the art and 2 you have to match the print itself these are not one of the same theres a special look and technique that comes from the orginal process itself and Im not referring to substituting inkjet.

and Ill say it again you CANNOT reproduce this art from just pics
there will always be a need for inkjet I do them myself as well when sceening isnt possible or feasible so knock yoursef out.

 

[trevmar]

Assault side art

I'm in for a set as well.

 

[hereitcomes]

Well that was a fun read.

 

[atariscott]

Films...........

 

[mattosborn]

Films...........

Nice!

 

[Kawydud]

Those films are frickin sweet!

Any Black Widow in the future? just hoping

 

[atariscott]

Those films are frickin sweet!

Any Black Widow in the future? just hoping

Maybe......

 

[Xyla]

Those Assault films are beautiful. I can't wait!

 

[ENDOFLINE]

nice..... black widow rules!

if at sometime in the near distant future this artwork is made, im in for 1 set.

Maybe......

 

[Kawydud]

Maybe......

That is even more awesome!

 

[Muel]

Films...........

So NICE!!

Well count me in for a set when they become available as well!

-Muel

 

[fatherpain]

Nice find on the BW films! This sideart may allow some people to bring there Widow's back to this condition or close My restored BW with NOS sideart, sides completely redone no gravitar underneath, courtesy of nash.. Count me in for a set of Assault Sideart when it becomes avail.

Tom