Area 51 / Max Force Guns not tracking

72Demon

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Hoping someone knows what is causing this:
I am trying to add a Area 51 / Maximum Force PCB to my Z-Back Cab. It has a 25" K7000 WG monitor. The problem is the guns are not registering on screen. The triggers work, it sounds like when you are reloading, firing off screen, the screen flashes when you pull the trigger. On the gun calibration screen the crosshairs do NOT show up. I tried the pcb and guns in two other cabs and they work. I just cannot figure out why it wont in this z back cab. I tried another cab that has the same type K7000 monitor and it works too. I tried adjusting the voltages slightly up and down. I tried the brightness of the monitor. I orginally planned on using a 4 in 1 jamma switcher from RiddleTv, I thought maybe that was the differnece, and then plugged the pcb directly into the cab's jamma connector and it still does not register the guns aim. I can't figure out what else to check. Could it be wired up differently for the player 1 and 2 inputs? Does that even matter for a gun game?

Any suggestions on what to try next would be appreciated!!!!
 
I'm assuming that since you tried the guns and PCB in another cab, that you left the guns wired the same between the two cabs.

This rules out the PCB and Guns as a problem.

Which leaves the monitor and glass.

Clean the glass (inside and out).

You may need to turn up the brightness on the monitor. You may also need to adjust the contrast and H-Hold.

Also, check the red/green/blue screen and make sure you colors look good. I have a monitor that is tinted red (I need to fix it) on my test bench and it never works for gun games due to that.

Also double check (or post pictures) of how your wired to your monitor's input. You should be using pin 10 for sync.
 
Thank you for the input. I did adjust the colors and brightness. The bezel is clear glass. The monitor input ground pins were different, so I matched it to the other cab that it does work on. I did find that the jamma harness was missing the sync connector, so I ran another one to it, but that did not help. I thought that was gonna be the problem. Does the player 1 & 2 inputs matter? I have not checked that yet on the jamma harness, like if p1, b4, b5, is wired to anything, not sure if that matters. I need to double check if the sync connector is on pin 10, but I'm pretty sure it matches my other cab it worked on. The ground connector was different so I moved that one.
 
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Make sure you are trying player 1's gun when player 1 is coined up (and 2 for 2), not that you are coining up player 1 and using player 2's gun which won't work.

I'd post a few pictures of the wiring you have.

If you are willing, get your other cab all working again. Than swap monitors. If this monitor works in the other cab, it would either be a dirty glass issue or a wiring issue.
 
Here is a picture of the monitor connector, I made sure it matches the other cab the guns works on. I am testing both guns on two player games. I tried hooking up the power and monitor input from zback to the other monitor and it had the same issue, using the z back jamma harness. So I don't think it's a monitor issue. I took off the glass bezel too, just to be sure. It must be the wiring in the z back cab. Can't figure out what though. Any ideas on what part of the jamma harness is needed for the guns to register tracking?
 

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Here is a picture of the monitor connector, I made sure it matches the other cab the guns works on. I am testing both guns on two player games. I tried hooking up the power and monitor input from zback to the other monitor and it had the same issue, using the z back jamma harness. So I don't think it's a monitor issue. I took off the glass bezel too, just to be sure. It must be the wiring in the z back cab. Can't figure out what though. Any ideas on what part of the jamma harness is needed for the guns to register tracking?

The ONLY wires you need working (other than the guns wired to the game PCB) are the monitor wires.

However, it could still be power supply related. What is the 5v voltage at the game PCB? What is the voltage at the gun connectors?

If the power supplies are an easy swap, swap those and see if the problem follows the power supply.
 
Ok, thank you for confirming the jamma player inputs have no effect. So I do not need to worry about having the jamma switcher. I was thinking it must be related to having p1 & p2 b4, b5 wired to other pcbs. I will try another p/s next. I did adjust the voltages 4.8 up to 5.2 measured at the hard drive with no change. Will need to test the 5v at the guns next.
 
I was thinking it must be related to having p1 & p2 b4, b5 wired to other pcbs.

Wait, what?

Depending on how you have this wired, you could be bleeding 5v from area51/max to the "off" PCB on the switcher. A 5v "short" if you will could cause gun problems.

If these buttons are "diode" protected against false grounds to all PCBs (for when they are off) you should be ok.
 
OK, I adjusted the voltages at the guns 5v to 4.8 to 5.2, no help. I removed all the kick harnesses, no help. I replaced the power supply. No help. Retested in the other cabinet, still works with voltages at the guns 5v running at 4.9-5.0. Tested all the pins for the gun connectors, they are the same between the two cabinets. Still cant figure this out. Do I need to replace the jamma harness in the z back? This is crazy.
 
Just so we are clear:
Z Back Cab doesn't work
Other Cab does work

1) You've tested the same PCB in both cabs
2) The guns are hooked up directly to the PCB (no cab wiring in the Z-back for guns)
3) You've tested the Z Back Monitor "jumpered" from the other cab
4) You've swapped power supplies

So, all that is left, as far as I can see is the video wiring from the jamma harness to the monitor. Or some other unknown defect in the jamma harness that is causing a problem.

Do you have a spare jamma harness to test with in the z-back?

I guess it is also possible (albeit unlikely) something A/C related is causing interference in the Z-back making it not work.

Does the z-back monitor need an isolation transformer? Was it tested in the "jumpers" test? (Same for the marquee light I guess.)

Crazy.
 
Thank you for the replies, I appreciate the help.
Answers:
Z back guns tracking does not work, no cross hairs
Other cab, killer instinct, guns work

1. Yes
2. Yes hooked up to pcb same as in the ki
3. Yes
4. I put in another power supply, not the one in the the ki, because that has a switcher.

My spare jamma harness does not have a connection for negative voltage, so I would have to order another one.

Both monitors require isolation transformers and have them.
What so you mean by tested in the jumpers test?
 
My spare jamma harness does not have a connection for negative voltage, so I would have to order another one.
-5v is only for sound amps (I'm not sure this game needs it either). Don't worry about that. It won't affect the guns. Try it anyway. :)

Both monitors require isolation transformers and have them.
What so you mean by tested in the jumpers test?

You said you had the two cabs next to each other and wired the video signal over to the z-back to test the z-back monitor. (Correct?) How did you power the z-back monitor? Did it use the iso-transformer in the z-back?
 
Still no luck.

Ran a new jamma harness, only connected to the pcb, no joysticks or buttons. Guns do not track.

Used the power supply from the KI Cab, still does not track.

Put the pcb in the KI cab and it works. Just does not work in the Z back.
 
Unplug everything A/C and try again.

The only A/C item you should have plugged in at this point is a line filter and maybe a fuse before the power supply.

The only D/C item plugged in is the PCB, no coin door lights, etc, right?

Use the other cab to power the monitor while doing this.

It might be time for a whole lot of pictures of the Z-back cab.
 
Check for grounds at the jamma edge of the KI first so you know what you want to see.

Verify the following:

1. Pin 1/2 and 27/28 should be connected together (black wires running to these pins usually.)
2. Pin 14 (parts side) should be connected together.
3. Manual (Page 47) shows Gun pinout has pin 1 & pin 6 of connector PGUN1 and PGUN2 to also be ground.

Verify the LEDS on your board. Especially TOO HIGH and TOO LOW led. See table 3_2 in the manual.

Now, all these should be connected together, so putting a multimeter (set 10K ohms) meter on any of them should show a 0 ohms on the display.

P.s. my lucky guess is that you are missing monitor GND or, one of the pins on the bottom of your harness has no GND (27 or 2), or you are using shitty Chinese harness with low current on +5V.
 
First off, Thank you for the responses.

Unfortunately it is still not working.

The AC is only running the p/s, monitor, and Marquee light. DC is only running the slaved in jamma harness to pcb, no other connections. I am touching the p1 & P2 start wires to a ground wire to start the game.

This is what I tried today:
I adjusted the voltage so it is inbetween "too high" and "too low". The slaved in harness did not have pin 14 soldered to a wire, it was one of the ground wires going to the monitor ground connector. I thought for sure this was the problem. (Although the Z-back jamma harness has it) So I soldered a wire to that pin and ran it to the monitor, it did not help. I connected/jumpered all the ground wires: Pins 1, 2, 27, 28, and 14 together. It still did not help. Does the glass bezel need to be on for the light guns to work? The Z-backs is slightly tinted, so I removed it. I tried with it on and off just to see if it made a difference. I adjusted the brightness again to see if it helped too.

I checked both gun connectors on the pcb to make sure I had ground and 5 volts too.
 
I'm out of options.
If your voltages are good and it works on the other cab, this shit should work.
If you have proper +5V at the gun connector and at the other end of the cable, it should work.

Try cleaning the monitor & glass yet? Adjust the screen pot, ensure plenty of contrast? Screen is properly focused? That's all i can think of at this stage.
 
I'm out of options.
If your voltages are good and it works on the other cab, this shit should work.
If you have proper +5V at the gun connector and at the other end of the cable, it should work.

Try cleaning the monitor & glass yet? Adjust the screen pot, ensure plenty of contrast? Screen is properly focused? That's all i can think of at this stage.

He tested the monitor in the z-back jumpered over to the KI cab.

Monitor/glass is known good.
PCB is known good.
Guns are known good (direct wired to the game PCB).

Power supply isn't known good (he never tried the KI power supply in the Z back)
Wiring harness isn't known good
A/C items aren't known good.

I know it might be a pain, but I would try
1) the KI power supply in the z-back
2) A/C items suspect: line filter, marquee light or isolation transformer (swap all of them from the KI)
3) Other wiring harness problem

Good luck.
 
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