Are we slowly killing this forum - and perhaps our own hobby?

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visionik

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Are we slowly killing this forum - and perhaps our own hobby?

I wanted to share my thoughts on the recent departure (and subsequent ban) of allelectronics; but more fundamentally, to a problem I feel we're experiencing here with some of our most talented and passionate community members.

For context, this relates to the thread here ("Mini XY") :

https://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=399236

and here ("Asteroids Multi")

https://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=401165

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My perspective, from two things I knew beforehand:

1. I knew who Allelectronics was. Not personally, but from the VectorList days and my side-hobby collecting Vectrex stuff (a much more time-space-convenient hobby, btw).

When the "Mini XY" thread showed up, a few of my holding-out-for-dear-life neurons fired and I was pretty sure who it was. 15 seconds of Google and I knew for sure.

Allelectronics has been around for a long time. He designed one of (if not the first) high voltage replacement boards for Amplifone and WG6100 vector monitors back in the early 2000's. He helped many vector collectors diagnose and fix problems with their vector monitors for free. He also ran a board repair service that many people felt was one of the best around back then.

He also understood the high voltage, deflection, yoke, and overall analog parts of vector monitors way better than most collectors did. This was true 20 years ago, and it seems to be even more true today.

He was always taking things apart, figuring out how they worked, and *very* openly discussing what he learned. He did this once for a popular Vectrex multicart that was built in the late 90's. That caused some Vectrex community drama - much like what we saw here in the last week.

For nearly 20 years he's been incredibly consistent on both what he knows and what he does: He reverse engineers stuff, designs better versions, openly discloses what he's done, and delivers working stuff. I've run into Star Wars and other vector games running his HV boards several times over the years. (BTW, they all still work.)

I've also never seen (nor found) a single "rip off" product that he's tried to sell - in over 20 years.

When he asked about the Asteroids multi-kit in the second thread, I had a pretty clear guess on what he wanted to do: figure out how it worked and incorporate the functionality into the Asteroids FPGA board. Based on my knowledge of allelectronics past, I did not jump to the conclusion that his next step was to sell it to everyone and rip off Braze. I guessed it was probably for his personal use - but likely hoping he could get Braze to agree to it as a product in the long run. In fact, on Facebook allelectronics said that he's tried to contact Braze several times but can't get a response.

I believe the drama you saw play out in the "Asteroids Multi" thread was largely based in the past. Allelectronics has been attacked before for (what I personally believe is) innocent interest in reverse-engineering multi "kits" that are effectively no longer available. It also appears there was previous bad-blood between him and at least one of the other people in that thread. I think allelectronics reactions had a lot to do with what's happened to him before. He showed up here, open, trying to help, teaching us, feeling proud about what he'd done… and within a few weeks some of us were attacking him and questioning his morals. Some people *DO NOT* take that stuff well. Does this justify everything that happened? No, but I think it contextualizes it.

On not disclosing the origins of the FPGA boards here, I see two things:

a) I knew it was a James Sweet board. I could have sworn allelectronics had posted that in the "Mini XY" thread. But I just reviewed that thread - and I don't see James mentioned. I do know that allelectronics specifically said it was from James on his Facebook group - before he even started posting here. I am pretty sure he also said the board was from James in the YouTube "yoke winding" video that was made. So why didn't he say that here?

b) I think it's because allelectronics showed up here to show (and talk about) his XY monitor and XY control PCB's he built. Then many of us went gaga over the Asteroids FPGA board itself and he was surprised. In fact he literally said this in a post:

"I actually didn't think the Asteroids vector board would get all the attention it has. I was pretty proud of my monitor."

Could I be wrong about allelectronics? Absolutely. I had a business partner - that I knew for 10 years beforehand - whom I abruptly realized was a sociopath. He fooled me for nearly 15 years. So yes, I could be wrong. But for what it is worth, I don't think I'm wrong here. Overall allelectronics seems like a good guy, and I certainly think he's net-positive to the hobby.



2. I honestly hate to say this, but: I also knew that this forum has become incredibly efficient in driving off some of the most talented people in our community.

I did the majority of my collecting from 1990 to 2003, when the community interacted largely via newsgroups and things like the VectorList. Most of the people I knew - and knew of - are from this era. As I started collecting again last year, I reached out to several of them and, among other things, asked why they were not here. The answer almost every time was "too much drama"

Over the last year I also started meeting folks I'd never met before. Some of the smartest replacement electronics (reproduction and fpga) folks, some of the top arcade game reproduction and restoration folks, and some of the people finding, saving, and selling the highest volumes of games. Some of them were not here, and when I asked why, the answers were again largely "too much drama".

I've also seen some of the people who *were* here start to move away. Surprise surprise, when I asked why… "too much drama".

Almost all of these people have moved to Facebook. It's easier for them because they can quickly build a large audience and *they* decide who gets to stay in their groups. Cause drama? Price-police too much? Intention-police too much? Boom, you're gone… not them.

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Conclusion and thoughts:

Don't get me wrong. I love KLOV / arcade-museum, both for my selfish game-collecting and vector-saving interests and for the people. I've met some great people here in the last year. People I will hopefully know for the rest of my life. I will do anything I can to help it sustain and even grow. Including an occasional critique we may not all agree with :)

We are loosing "talent" due to over-policing, largely due to over-policing of prices; but also of intentions. We are so quick to judge or question the intentions of others.

We should assume that peoples intentions are GOOD until they are proven BAD.

We should accept that the offered prices of things *owned by others* are not ours to question.

(We should feel free to continue to make fun of insane eBay and Craigslist ads though. Entertainment value and policing are often - but not always - two entirely different things.)

We should realize if we don't change these things, we will continue to lose key contributors. Either as they give up; or as they move to splintered groups on Facebook.

We should also realize that often the most talented people are the hardest to get along with. As an entrepreneur, I have had to put up with people who over-react, who are emotional, who are dramatic. I have been this way myself at times.

We need to consider how we handle passionate contributors to our hobby. Many of the best people became the best at what they do because of passion, not because of professionalism. When pushed, passionate people tend to be… passionate. Does that mean we should put up with consistently abusive people? No. But I think we need more tolerance of occasional flare-ups if we want to optimize success; where success is saving our games and this hobby.

We need to consider when it is acceptable to a) reverse engineer and create for personal use or b) do the same for the intention of selling (at cost or otherwise) reproductions of abandoned things. As a community we are clearly reproducing and selling entire boards from Atari, Taito, Mylstar, and more. We justify this a) because the products are abandoned, and b) in the interest of preserving our games and our hobby. We are getting to a point where some of what *we* as a community built may also need to be preserved. Their are kits and upgrades that were created 10-20 or even-more years ago that just are not available anymore. At what point, if ever, is it ok to reverse engineer and reproduce these too? (Note I am not saying this specifically applies to the Braze Asteroids Multikit, which first came out ~13 years ago and is incredibly hard to get. I'm bringing up the fundamental question.)

On a very specific point, as a vector collector I will always be exceptionally tolerant of anyone who understands - and helps save and progress - vector monitors.

The inevitable conclusion of vector collecting is that our games will slowly die as the monitors die. Raster games have an escape route: their are millions of raster yokes/tubes/etc that can be repurposed; and ultimately, religion aside, these games can also easily go to LCD. Vectors don't have such an easy path.

Yes, we vector folks can eventually build new versions of VectorVGA, and maybe, just maybe, one day lasers will be fast enough and cheap enough to used to create a new "vector monitor" that fits in the form factor of the original vectors. But, until such a magical day happens we need all the help we can get. We need 10 times more dezbaz's and allelectronics.


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If any of this has offended you, I apologize. I'm just trying to express my honest viewpoint as best I can. Moderators, if this is considered an inappropriate discussion please feel free to delete it.

Best,

-Visionik
 
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it sucks to lose brilliant/talented folks but if those same folks have skin so thin that a couple people (rightly or wrongly) antagonizing them in a sea of thousands drive them away ... that's on them.

shooting from the hip here, but probably 90% of the people that have left "because drama" have themselves been part of or contributed the drama (certainly is the case with the dude mentioned by OP)

I can't imagine it's any different for any other internet communities

enjoy arcade games. disregard haters. :)
 
This collecting group is full of odd personalities, I am amazed every day at the level of intellect and genius I see. I expect a level of social upheaval.

I just like to play games and occasionally price police.

I even miss Kaneda.

This is a great post!
 
but probably 90% of the people that have left "because drama" have themselves been part of or contributed the drama (certainly is the case with the dude mentioned by OP)

Yeah man there's no defending a guy who is threatening to beat up electronic engineers and telling people to go look at child porn or whatever... The guy is nuts. He's a man-child. A grown adult can just ignore the other guy or report him to a mod for harassment and call it a day. Instead, Allelectronics resorted to petty insults and trash talk like we're in middle school.
 
"On a very specific point, as a vector collector I will always be exceptionally tolerant of anyone who understands - and helps save and progress - vector monitors. "

I agree 100%, I doubt anyone gets into any vector related projects for the mad cash they dream of making. They do it because they think the technology is cool and needs to be understood and preserved. No one should be discouraging this ... without these types of individuals this hobby will literally rot away.
 
"Slowly killing this forum" he says. LOL.

Do you honestly think that the purpose of this forum is to contribute knowledge and skills to the hobby?

Do you feel some sense of entitlement being a member here?

It's a discussion forum. Feel free to discuss.
 
I really don't believe he left/was banned because he was maybe thinking about doing something with somebody else's product that some people may have considered a bid shady ethics-wise. He left/was banned because when asked a couple fairly simple questions regarding his intent, he went nuclear and crossed any number of lines.

If in response to the question "why" --which is an entirely appropriate question in pretty much any situation--he had answered directly what his intentions were, things could be very different right now. But he didn't... he went almost immediately into a lie to cover his intentions and then almost immediately from there into the deep end of rage and personal attacks.

The intelligent and creative people bring a lot to this hobby and this forum, but it is not intelligence and creativity that is being discouraged, it's behavior. Nobody should get a pass for their behavior simply because they contribute something that most of us cannot. When you abuse others, you should not be welcome, period.
 
Having read the thread, Allelectronics certainly got what he deserved. HOWEVER, he was not the only antagonist in the discussion. He was just the most thin skinned. If you want to "clean up" the presumed issues, address both sides of the problem. Certainly ban those that get out of control, but let's not pretend the others were "innocent victims".
 
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I really don't believe he left/was banned because he was maybe thinking about doing something with somebody else's product that some people may have considered a bid shady ethics-wise. He left/was banned because when asked a couple fairly simple questions regarding his intent, he went nuclear and crossed any number of lines.

I guess this also gets to my point. There is some culpability in HOW you ask questions. I don't consider "Why, so you can rip off Scott's design?" a "fairly simple" question. It's a passive-aggressive accusation. Again, Allelectronics did melt down, and was appropriately sanctioned...but intentionally provoking comments should at least be admonished as well.
 
I guess this also gets to my point. There is some culpability in HOW you ask questions. I don't consider "Why, so you can rip off Scott's design?" a "fairly simple" question. It's a passive-aggressive accusation. Again, Allelectronics did melt down, and was appropriately sanctioned...but intentionally provoking comments should at least be admonished as well.

What was actually written was "if you're wanting closeups of the board so you can rip off Scott's design, I don't think you'll get it here." That's pretty innocuous, and although I agree there's a veiled accusation in there, I don't see anything wrong with that on its face. dogp has the right to deny his help to somebody who may be doing something he doesn't agree with, and he has the right to explain why he's denying his help.

All that allelectronics has to do after that is say "No, that's not my intent, here's what I have in mind" and then explain himself. Case closed. But he didn't go there, he made up some lame story about a broken trace and then went ballistic when caught in his lie. Sorry, but I can't really blame anybody else but him.
 
What was actually written was "if you're wanting closeups of the board so you can rip off Scott's design, I don't think you'll get it here." That's pretty innocuous, and although I agree there's a veiled accusation in there, I don't see anything wrong with that on its face. dogp has the right to deny his help to somebody who may be doing something he doesn't agree with, and he has the right to explain why he's denying his help.

All that allelectronics has to do after that is say "No, that's not my intent, here's what I have in mind" and then explain himself. Case closed. But he didn't go there, he made up some lame story about a broken trace and then went ballistic when caught in his lie. Sorry, but I can't really blame anybody else but him.

Oh, I agree...I'm not taking sides on this one. I do think it was handled appropriately (the worst offender was removed). Just observing that the whole thing could have been avoided. (although, the accusation was not at all veiled). ;)
 
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Sorry...

...dude needs to grow up. His response to a few people questioning him was that of a 12 year old or someone who has NEVER used the internet before...
 
Sorry...

...dude needs to grow up. His response to a few people questioning him was that of a 12 year old or someone who has NEVER used the internet before...

I think it's the exact opposite...it's like that of a 12 year old that has ONLY used the Internet, and has never gotten "immediate feedback" for running his mouth. But that's what you can expect on an Internet forum...Keyboard Courage.
 
he went almost immediately into a lie to cover his intentions and then almost immediately from there into the deep end of rage and personal attacks.
This is exactly my point.

You say we need less drama, then we need less of this guy... and got it. Even if he didn't want to explain himself he could have just said "eff you... I'll do what I want" and went on his way, but instead blew a gasket and started personal attacks.

There's no doubt the guy is smart, and I don't hold any sort of grudge against him. I won't help him run the Braze code, but if he does want help with James' VHDL, I'd be glad to help... assuming he's willing to be civil, and give me credit for the work I do (and hopefully credit to others for the work they've done). Booting multiple bitstreams on an FPGA isn't difficult... though the hardware is similar enough that it should be possible to roll it all into a single design.

And speaking of James... does anyone know him, and is he aware that this guy is selling his boards?

DogP
 
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