Anyone think pinball manufacturers are pricing themselves out of existance

Black Matrix

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Anyone think pinball manufacturers are pricing themselves out of existance

Hey all,
I was having a conversation with a friend today and we were talking about Stern and the new pin companies. I am always joking with him calling pinball, "The Game of Kings" since its pretty much the the most expensive end of our hobby and seems to be the playground for countless doctors, lawyers, and others of professional ilk. Right now, our most popular urban legend is of a near local doctor with 32 DMD pins. Anyways, the point is with classic Bally/Williams dmd pins fetching 3000+ on a regular basis, and new pins retailing at 5K, I have to wonder is a bubble developing in the pinball world. So does any one else think pinball companies will eventually price themselves out of existence. And if a bubble is developing, eventually they always pop. So with the economy so bad, can anyone else attribute for the continued skyrocketing prices that seem to be never ending. Even if you are a doctor, I can't imagine that you would have enough space or disposable income to drop 5K every 3 months on a hobby or 7K on a WOZ, or 16K on a Magic Girl. Maybe, but its doubtful. So am I the only one who thinks the bubble has to burst eventually or does everyone else see Sterns business plan as sustainable. Thoughts?
 
While I will agree that the current stuff that Stern and to a lesser degree, JJP is doing can't go on forever, there will always be a certain level of collectibility that these pins have, and in turn, a perceived value. Stern is playing games with the collectors trying to grab their money before JJP can get it. Can you honestly say that Gomez, Ritchie and Sheets would be working there unless Jack started his company? I do feel that the DMD era games may "soften" a bit in price, but obviously, the A-list stuff will continue to hold its' value as they often go to the guys who just buy them to say they have them. It is a little insane that people are thinking that $5000 bucks for a MB or AFM is a good deal though. I maintain that there are plenty of these games around to grab for a decent price, for now....I have only given over 1 grand for one of my pins, you just have to be willing to look around, be patient and be willing to fix some small issues..
 
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I am wondering who are buying new pinballs these days? I havent seen one
on route in years. Is it just high end collectors? I personally would be hard pressed to drop 5k-7k on a single pinball.

If it is just collectors.. wouldnt it make sense to make pinballs
that relate to their youth? Like an 80's theme'd pinball. Or if you do
something like transformers.. do the classic cartoon series. Not the silly
movie version.

I wonder if pinball is really in tune with its market these days.
Maybe I just dont understand who is buying these.
 
I see them on route fairly frequently actually. Most transformers and tron though and transformers is horrid.

I wish I'd find something like spiderman at least
 
I would agree that the new machines are extremely pricey. If you watch one being made and know how many hours goes into making one, machine, it doesn't surprise me. Remember, they are made in the US, no cheap Chinese factory cranking them out. I am in agreement with MacrossPlus in that if you shop around you can find a deal. The most I have paid is $1200. I own 9 pins and I look for the ones where some part isn't functioning properly and I can buy for a bargain and fix it.

I did like the new Tron game!
 
I don't think they're pricing themselves out of existence. They are reacting to the fact that the market is shrinking, but those who remain in the market continue to have quite a bit of money to throw at machines. Supply and demand.

What might be worth discussing is whether or not companies like Farsight Studios can have an impact on the pinball market through their software simulations? Is it possible that their technology could eventually become so realistic that, like MAME has done with the arcade market, make it a bit obsolete? Or will the games spark a new interest in the real machines?
 
I don't think they're pricing themselves out of existence. They are reacting to the fact that the market is shrinking, but those who remain in the market continue to have quite a bit of money to throw at machines. Supply and demand.

What might be worth discussing is whether or not companies like Farsight Studios can have an impact on the pinball market through their software simulations? Is it possible that their technology could eventually become so realistic that, like MAME has done with the arcade market, make it a bit obsolete? Or will the games spark a new interest in the real machines?

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me the Pinball HOF and now Pinball Arcade games are fun to play when you have a few minutes, but can't replace the real thing. I will say that it has increased my interest in tracking down certain games(FH,WW,TOM) to either own or see how they play in the real world. I don't see it replacing owning the real thing, as owning a pinball(or six or twelve lol) is not for everyone, and these games are good for them. I will say I was surprised to see RBION on there as I thought that Gary Stern had considered video pinball as competition..
 
What might be worth discussing is whether or not companies like Farsight Studios can have an impact on the pinball market through their software simulations? Is it possible that their technology could eventually become so realistic that, like MAME has done with the arcade market, make it a bit obsolete? Or will the games spark a new interest in the real machines?

Man, I can't imagine so. So much of pinball's appeal lies with it being a very real mechanical thing. "Fake" pinball simply doesn't come anywhere near offering the same experience...well, for me anyways.

Moving from dedicated video games to MAME is damn-near the same thing.

Moving from real pinball machines to software emulation? Worlds apart.
 
So here's what I've noticed over that last 15ish year of collecting...

I know of 4-5 guy in the last couple years that just started collecting pins...I know of no one that has gotten 'out' of collecting. One guy is a Doctor and another a Lawyer.

With very few 'A' list games still available from ops as turnovers (compared to 15 years ago) prices on 'A', IMHO, will keep raising at collectors gobble them up. Just finding a MB, AFM, MM, etc for sale is sometimes a challenge...those couple guys mentions certainly don't have to ask how much. He'll..for what the one guy pays to fill up is boat is gas for a weekend...he could probably have a VERY nice pin it it's place.

The same could be said for a Stern (or JJ) NIB machine. For a schmuck like me...if I found a title I REALLY like..I could probably find a way to scrape up 4k and buy one...6k+ is out of the question. I just can't justify it.

Now those other 2 guys...well they could probably buy a NIB machine for each room in their house and not bat an eye. They certainly aren't worried about an 'extra' couple grand.

The market is there for NIB 6k collector pins...it just shifted to a place that I'll never be. You'd be very surprised how many closet collectors that are out there...that you probably don't know exist. In the last year and a half I found 6 guys with 15 miles of my house that have pins...here I thought I was the only freak in the area that did this =)
 
What might be worth discussing is whether or not companies like Farsight Studios can have an impact on the pinball market through their software simulations? Is it possible that their technology could eventually become so realistic that, like MAME has done with the arcade market, make it a bit obsolete? Or will the games spark a new interest in the real machines?

I'm interested in this subject.
and the jury is out. look at the feedback for the new phone app's. young people that don't "know" pinball from their youth find classic pinball "boring" when played as an app.

for me it's quite exciting. and is a solid "fix" for wanting to play the goals on a variety of tables, without owning one.

For example, I have a nice Black Knight. Love to play it, but i play it about once a week.
The kids love it.

Have an Eight Ball Deluxe at the daughter's house. it gets played about once a month and is great for new guests visiting. Kids LOVE LOVE LOVE it.

but these same kids have no interest in playing emulated pinball on the Xbox.

So it's an acquired taste for a specific crowd. Not sure that emulated pinball will bring a new generation into pinball, like playing a real machine in a seedy bowling alley or diner did for us.

Would I spend over 3 grand for 1 pinball, no way, can't justify it in the family budget. but would i spend several hundred on emulated pinball. Yes I will.
And do I want the Zen's and Farsights to succeed and continue to save the history and heritage of machines the average man will never play. Oh I love their efforts, big time.
 
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pinheads unite LOL
i thought the price on woz was fair enough for a new co. that has to build a pinball co from ground up. theres a lot of development ,technology .and geometry involved in these machines.
just think of it ,people pay lot's of money for games from the early 90's.......
and not all collectors are doctors,lawyers ,etc.
i know of at least 15 to 20 people with nice collections and none of them are a doc or lawyer........ just hard working guys with a drive to get what they want.
 
$6000 for a NIB pin, not from me. I am glad people are buying them, because in a few years I will have a supply to buy. My taste in pins is cheap, I like early 80s stuff and EMs from the 70s. I have looked at some DMDs but have not ponied up for the price. I don't see most of the DMDs being much better than stuff that was produced 25-30 years ago. I like original themes that have some artistic thought and not just putting together a theme and some toys. The market will go up and down as it does with everything. If more collectors enter the hobby it is only good for pinball as a whole. Don't get me wrong there are a few DMD machine that I am on the hunt for, but only for my collection and at a good price.
 
Many of the operators around here are not buying any new pins because of the price. It's too high. No operator in my area has the price-per-play higher than 50 cents.
 
Man, I can't imagine so. So much of pinball's appeal lies with it being a very real mechanical thing. "Fake" pinball simply doesn't come anywhere near offering the same experience...well, for me anyways.

I feel the same way. However, I also felt this way about digital cameras competing with traditional film, and they've managed to destroy that market. I wonder if it is possible to eventually get the physics so good, the random nature of the ball and the conditions so variable, that the computer versions could be even more appealing?
 
To me it's a lot more than physics. I want to see that little world under glass -- complete with wonderful mechanical toys, the glow of light bulbs, and the feel of shooting a metal ball bearing around. Flat computer graphics on a flat panel monitor just cannot compete.

I understand the "dedicated game-to-MAME" and "film-to-digital camera" examples, but with pinball, I find the difference between the real thing and the alternative to be far, far greater than the differences with either of those.
 
I would concur that Stern is getting out of hand with their pricing. But JJP seems to be building the kind of over-engineered, excessively high quality product that America is historically associated with.

When I see JJP's production updates I see lots of hardwood, stainless steel, intriguing design, and in all likelihood exhaustive play-testing.

When I think of recent Stern offerings I think of corners. Cut corners.

Were the theme for their first pin not such a turn off for me as a collector approaching middle age I'd have bought one. Hell if there were a mod to make it play cuts from Dark Side of the Moon instead of bits from the original ST I probably would have bought one. :D

Personally I cannot wait to play a WOZ and I'm hotly anticipating the announcement of their next title. Really hoping it is something original and has nothing to do with any license...
 
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To me it's a lot more than physics. I want to see that little world under glass -- complete with wonderful mechanical toys, the glow of light bulbs, and the feel of shooting a metal ball bearing around. Flat computer graphics on a flat panel monitor just cannot compete.

I understand the "dedicated game-to-MAME" and "film-to-digital camera" examples, but with pinball, I find the difference between the real thing and the alternative to be far, far greater than the differences with either of those.

and this pretty much sums up why the answer to the thread title is yes.
pinball became a social phenomena due to the masses playing it.
pinball's rarity and cost for a vendor to put one on location "all over town" like the old days isn't realistic.
and exactly why they'll continue to perfect the physics on our phone apps, until us old foggies in the general public are tired of playing the apps. by then the pinball companies that make real ones will be 2 or 3 decades gone. and someone will hang up the closed sign, turn off the light, and we'll all drive home in our landspeeders.
 
I agree with most of the above posts- I think it's a combination of things.

Rich people is the new demographic for machines, even ops are being phased out as the margins are too narrow and providing service is more effort than it's worth.

Appealing to lower income or a more broad spectrum doesn't make sense because young people either don't know what pinball is or just think of it as some old thing their parents played.

I do see a bubble in the mean time though. Prices are just rising too quickly too fast for it to be sustainable.
 
Also with regards to the under 30 crowd (maybe 40 at this point?), owning a pin just doesn't have value to them. $5K to these people is a new (to them) car. Heck, even a $1K pin is 15-20 PS3 games, or an iPhone and a new TV.
 
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