Another Billy Mitchell lawsuit?

You're missing the point and being diagnosed with autism isn't a requirement you just need to be able to read it's not about the fact that the score is automatically rejected because the joystick is different. But if you read the text of Billy's lawsuit

"Mitchell submitted a declaration from the vendor attesting to the condition of the machine and that it contained original unmodified hardware for the world record attempt."

And you can't state he's talking about the board, because separately he states a "senior Nintendo engineer " verified the board. This about TG and Karl getting their lawsuits dismissed

But the joystick was not a provision in twin galaxies requirements. Not when Billy recorded the score.

Again, they are still no provision over formerly off the shelf joysticks. There are also no guidelines whatsoever on proper joystick replacement for the sticks that are no longer in production. They are still no guidelines over springs, micro switches, restrictors, gate actuators and so forth.

You have people hitting world records on "original" machines from different regions with vastly different joysticks. This is especially true in different countries where not only is the cabinet completely different but their hardware such as buttons and joysticks are also completely different. Australia is a perfect example lowboy cabinets, MCA sticks and buttons everywhere.

Again, this precedent of disqualifying over a joystick is going to open a can of worms that nobody in the high score community can reason, let alone contain.
 
But the joystick was not a provision in twin galaxies requirements. Not when Billy recorded the score.

Again, they are still no provision over formerly off the shelf joysticks. There are also no guidelines whatsoever on proper joystick replacement for the sticks that are no longer in production. They are still no guidelines over springs, micro switches, restrictors, gate actuators and so forth.

You have people hitting world records on "original" machines from different regions with vastly different joysticks. This is especially true in different countries where not only is the cabinet completely different but their hardware such as buttons and joysticks are also completely different. Australia is a perfect example lowboy cabinets, MCA sticks and buttons everywhere.

Again, this precedent of disqualifying over a joystick is going to open a can of worms that nobody in the high score community can reason, let alone contain.
Again missing the point I'm not talking about the joystick automatically making the attempt illegitimate. But the defendants can now put forth proof at trial that the plaintiffs complaint is not correct plaintiff stated in his complaint that the machine used to complete record was original. This isn't about the high score this is about the lawsuit he could have easily stated in the lawsuit. "Record was completed on an original arcade board" he did not he stated 1) had been verified by a senior Nintendo engineer 2) original hardware. Neither of those are requirements to attempt a world record run he put that in the complaint.


This is about what / what is not defamation, regardless I think it's going to be a hard sell to a jury that an of Karl or TG actions are defamation

I agree with you that as long as the board is original it shouldn't really matter. People are doing lethal enforcers runs with a happ gun instead of a justifier, that shouldn't automatically reject it and I haven't seen that myself.
 
Again missing the point I'm not talking about the joystick automatically making the attempt illegitimate. But the defendants can now put forth proof at trial that the plaintiffs complaint is not correct plaintiff stated in his complaint that the machine used to complete record was original. This isn't about the high score this is about the lawsuit he could have easily stated in the lawsuit. "Record was completed on an original arcade board" he did not he stated 1) had been verified by a senior Nintendo engineer 2) original hardware. Neither of those are requirements to attempt a world record run he put that in the complaint.


This is about what / what is not defamation, regardless I think it's going to be a hard sell to a jury that an of Karl or TG actions are defamation

I agree with you that as long as the board is original it shouldn't really matter. People are doing lethal enforcers runs with a happ gun instead of a justifier, that shouldn't automatically reject it and I haven't seen that myself.

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying completely. I personally don't care about this lawsuit.

What I'm trying to point out here is that many people especially Billy detractors are using this as some kind of smoking gun when in reality it's just another point to sour the already toxic high score community.
 
Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying completely. I personally don't care about this lawsuit.

What I'm trying to point out here is that many people especially Billy detractors are using this as some kind of smoking gun when in reality it's just another point to sour the already toxic high score community.
I understand what you're saying and I don't care about the high score. What I see is a grown man trying to silence someone's opinion with a fake defamation lawsuit. He knows it's wrong (I won't comment on the impact Billy's lawsuit on Apollo legend had on his suicide) but he is a piece of shit and does it anyway. He probably thought that Karl would fold and take down the videos like Apollo did but unfortunately for him it looks like they're going to take this one all the way
 
Sounds like turbo levels of autism when you start breaking qualifications down to the vintage of the fasteners, bushings and grommets. Consumables you have no hope of getting 1:1 genuine replacements for and thus you can fault on petty crap.

Are you forgetting that they tried to invalidate Wiebe's score because of the glue on the transformer in the clock circuit?

(It was eventually invalidated when someone noticed DK was playing with DKJr sounds on a DDK anyway).
 
I can't be forgetting what I don't follow. Like I said I don't really follow this kind of nerd drama as it seems dumb and nit-picky. Challenging high scores at the component level or by glitch exploitation just sucks the fun out of games for me.
 
I can't be forgetting what I don't follow. Like I said I don't really follow this kind of nerd drama as it seems dumb and nit-picky. Challenging high scores at the component level or by glitch exploitation just sucks the fun out of games for me.

The sad thing is that it's been going on for decades.
In ~2000, Walter asked me to analyze Missile Command code to try to invalidate Roy Schildt's scores for (potentially) using the wrong trackball size dip switch setting.

Back then he'd just learned about different ROM revisions for games. (Came up when I asked about the Asteroids Deluxe score, since I'd been playing with the harder ROMs.)
 
I remember before I got married my wife (gf at the time) and I watched king of Kong and she added Walter day as a friend on Facebook and he started sliding into her DMs :50:

I'll see if she still has them on Facebook, but it was nothing that would "cancel" him. I think Todd Rogers and Billy Mitchell were manipulating him for the better part of 30 years
 
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But the joystick was not a provision in twin galaxies requirements. Not when Billy recorded the score.

Again, they are still no provision over formerly off the shelf joysticks. There are also no guidelines whatsoever on proper joystick replacement for the sticks that are no longer in production. They are still no guidelines over springs, micro switches, restrictors, gate actuators and so forth.

You have people hitting world records on "original" machines from different regions with vastly different joysticks. This is especially true in different countries where not only is the cabinet completely different but their hardware such as buttons and joysticks are also completely different. Australia is a perfect example lowboy cabinets, MCA sticks and buttons everywhere.

Again, this precedent of disqualifying over a joystick is going to open a can of worms that nobody in the high score community can reason, let alone contain.

Then it can join the other 12,000 reasons why most of the high scores are questionable for one reason or another, starting with the multitude of fake scores from the 80's that would never survive modern verification techniques. The credibility is so low now, what's the difference?
 
Then it can join the other 12,000 reasons why most of the high scores are questionable for one reason or another, starting with the multitude of fake scores from the 80's that would never survive modern verification techniques. The credibility is so low now, what's the difference?

Solid point
 
I found some info here that says the important point is in the barrel's decision routines, not in the ladder routines.

It's similar to how you can partially control fireballs in the Atari VCS/2600 version of Donkey Kong.

I went back-and-forth with former TG chief ref Robert Mruczek over this one, because he was claiming getting a score of 1 million in the game w/o losing a life was impossible because the fireballs move very erratically around 800k and will often hover over rivets, preventing you from removing them. The trick to getting past that point is to "steer" the fireballs away from the rivets, thus allowing you to clear them. But he stomped his feet and swore his cartridge didn't allow for that and thus there must be 2 different versions of the code, and tried to remove everyone's score that was higher than his, based solely on his baseless opinion. I offered to dump his cartridge and compare the code to the code that's available online, but he instead sold his cartridge to someone and failed to contact them or provide any contact info for them. That's a perfect example of how TG used to be run, and the type of people who ran it. And btw, Mruczek is the same TG fool from King of Kong who was making a fuss over the 'gummy substance' on Steve Wiebe's boardset.
 
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It's all quite sad and pathetic really.

Sad that practically all previous records really are of questionable veracity.

The only way to really have an apples to apples baseline at this point anyway is to have all interested parties come to a proctored location to play the same verified machine, which is utilizing a previously published list of settings and components, live and in person in front of anyone who wants to watch.
For any who wants to practice at home or elsewhere then having your machine set up identically is to your advantage of course.

And if you are the GOAT then repeating a performance shouldn't be an issue.
If you were/are the best then come prove it.

The cheating and the spurious lawsuit crap is the part that is pathetic.
 
The barrel "steering" code is independent of the normal input handling routine, and it only looks at left/right not up/down, so an 8-way stick would allow you to steer the barrels while climbing ladders:

View attachment 642624
Yes, great find. While you can already steer barrels while on a ladder, you can't climb AND steer at the same time with the 4-way joystick. Being able to do both at the same time could be a big advantage and significantly alter the gameplay of the barrel boards.
 
Unbelievable. This scumbag got his fake score on a DKWITH BLACK T-MOULDING!!!

View attachment 642497
The DK cabinet shown in the infamous board swap video with Robert Childs has white T-molding, even though Childs apparently claimed the same machine was used for both events:


In that same testimony package, technician Robert Childs testified that the FAMB score was achieved using "my same Donkey Kong Arcade machine," which was purportedly used by Mitchell to set a 2004 record of 1,047,200 points in Childs' warehouse/showroom.

 

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Then it can join the other 12,000 reasons why most of the high scores are questionable for one reason or another, starting with the multitude of fake scores from the 80's that would never survive modern verification techniques. The credibility is so low now, what's the difference?

There's a difference between questionable 80's records where no verification was actually required, and fraudulent 'modern' records where completely technically incompetent and corrupt Twin Galaxies "officials" verified scores for the in-crowd and rejected score from others.
 
Billy is a polarising figure for sure. But it depends how seriously you want to take all this stuff. The reality is that from day one, there was never any money put behind Walter or Twin Galaxies by the industry, backers or sponsors to any degree. TG was nothing more than Walter identifying a vacuum and choosing to occupy it with a certain amount of chutzpa and flair. All the refs were volunteers and there were only a handful of them. America (and the world) is a big place, so there is no way you could do anything in terms of monitoring/scrutinising high scores without a certain amount of trust involved. Of course that would and did lead to spurious scores being submitted.

Someone from the other side of the country phones in a score to TG headquarters in Iowa. Did they get the score? Was the machine original hardware? Did someone witness it? Should Walter jump on a plane to check it out? Of course not. The whole thing became bigger than Walter ever imagined it would I'm sure.

What I think many people overlook is that Walter's main vision was not to take over the world, or for TG to become some hugely respected, commercially successful global organisation. I believe it was to bring people together and give kids (who are now adults) something to do. Walter and Billy are all about generating some hype and getting people involved in something. Walter is more a humanitarian than an Elon Musk.

As @HudsonArcade says above - On a more general point, I don't know what Billy did or didn't do, or whether that red joystick is 4 or 8 way, but we find ourselves in a situation now where people want to question every single score that was ever submitted to Twin Galaxies. And those people who are left over there (the gamers who are now supposedly verifying scores) are eating themselves from the inside out with paranoia and mob mentality, removing old scores and supposedly adjudicating new submissions with very limited understanding or knowledge about the nuances of the classic titles. There are no more refs. No more expertise. The place is toxic and the old guard who had a clue have all left. I can point you to several Missile Command and Super Missile Attack scores approved recently that weren't done using original hardware. Its obvious to me, but not to those currently there approving scores. But what do you do? The thousands upon thousands of legacy scores on the database will never be cleaned up, and I would suggest that the investment of energy into the Billy drama is akin to rearranging the deckchairs on the deck of the Titanic. People love to bring down a villain.

The old scores are of their time (fake scores and all) - they are a line in the sand, a moment in time when the world was going crazy for arcade video games. This whole videogame high scores thing should be about fun, getting together and playing some games. Sadly, the internet has killed that vision and potential joy in the high score scene. Monitoring high scores was never and will never be a perfect science for all sorts of reasons.
 
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Someone from the other side of the country phones in a score to TG headquarters in Iowa. Did they get the score? Was the machine original hardware? Did someone witness it? Should Walter jump on a plane to check it out? Of course not. The whole thing became bigger than Walter ever imagined it would I'm sure.
That was fine when TG was just TG, but when they became the "official scorekeeper of record" for Guinness, that had to change.

What I think many people overlook is that Walter's main vision was not to take over the world, or for TG to become some hugely respected, commercially successful global organisation. I believe it was to bring people together and give kids (who are now adults) something to do. Walter and Billy are all about generating some hype and getting people involved in something.
The goal for both was shameless self-promotion.
Without TG, who is Walter?
Without Pacman and Donkey Kong, Billy just makes 3rd-rate hot sauce.

Walter is more a humanitarian than an Elon Musk.
Those names should never appear in the same sentence.
 
What I think many people overlook is that Walter's main vision was not to take over the world, or for TG to become some hugely respected, commercially successful global organisation. I believe it was to bring people together and give kids (who are now adults) something to do. Walter and Billy are all about generating some hype and getting people involved in something. Walter is more a humanitarian than an Elon Musk.
Walter Day saw TG as an opportunity to get his name and face in the press, be it magazine articles or local TV news segments. To that end, both him and Musk are very similar. Yes, I agree that TG became larger than Day ever anticipated. But because Day never established TG on a 'solid foundation', and never bothered to make any serious attempt at fixing it, the TG database will forever be tarnished.

As for Mitchell, he clearly enjoys having his name in the press as much as Day did, if not more. The only difference is, I don't think Mitchell sees a difference between good press/bad press.

but we find ourselves in a situation now where people want to question every single score that was ever submitted to Twin Galaxies. And those people who are left over there (the gamers who are now supposedly verifying scores) are eating themselves from the inside out with paranoia and mob mentality, removing old scores and supposedly adjudicating new submissions with very limited understanding or knowledge about the nuances of the classic titles. There are no more refs. No more expertise. The place is toxic and the old guard who had a clue have all left.

There was a concerted effort underway long before Day sold TG to remove questionable scores. The problem is, the person Day put in charge of that task, Robert Mruczek, was cherry-picking which ones. As someone who was a member of TG for 20 years now (and submitted scores both under Day and Jace Hall), trust me when I say TG was much more toxic under Day and his sycophants than it ever was under anyone else. Yes, the refs are gone. The gamers are the refs now, because they are the experts. That's how it always should have been, not simply those who were close to Day. For a score to be accepted/rejected now, it takes several people to vote on it, not just a single ref, and any questions about a score are posted in plain view for all to see and discuss. Prior to that, any issues were discussed in secret forums, and gamers had no say in the matter whatsoever.

As for the Missile Command and Super Missile Attack scores you have questions about, join TG if you're not already a member and voice your opinion. Issues like these are in the gamer's hands now, so speak up.

Regarding legacy scores you have a question about, having those removed at this point will be an issue, because Jace Hall has made it clear any scores prior to his ownership are basically 'grandfathered' in. I ran into that 'brick wall' when I pointed out an issue with one of Mruczek's scores, and despite all the evidence to support removing it, the score remains.

his whole videogame high scores thing should be about fun, getting together and playing some games. Sadly, the internet has killed that vision and potential joy in the high score scene.

No, the internet didn't kill that vision. What's killing it are those involved who care more about themselves and their selfish interests. And regardless of what platform you're using to set high scores, using an emulator will forever be an issue that cannot be solved.
 
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