Alternatives to PayPal ?

I am looking for concrete examples. Your pic does not help someone take money from your checking account. Your account number and routing number do. Which was already given to PayPal.

Anyone who has the interest and a picture of you (especially a high-res scan of your face, like the ones they automatically take of you at airports now, even though you can decline them) has the ability to identify and track you from video footage anywhere. And that information can be purchased from data brokers. And there are people who are interested in buying it, to track you and your habits in the real world.

It isn't about stealing money from your bank account. It's about you participating in a surveillance economy without knowing or controlling it.

There are companies that pay Uber drivers to carry cameras that scan all license plates those drivers pass, and harvest the plate info, which gets sold to anyone who wants to buy it, including insurance companies and law enforcement, for the purposes of tracking where people drive.

People are now doing the same with faces. And the more data you give away about your face, the more you enable that ecosystem. Every time you enter a big box store and there's a camera? Every time you go through a self-checkout and there's a camera? Every time you board a plane? Those cameras are learning to recognize you by your face alone, so no other information is needed. So giving away your face information tied to other information helps those systems make those connections, and enables that information to be bought and sold without your knowledge.

You may not care. Many people do.
 
People are now doing the same with faces. And the more data you give away about your face, the more you enable that ecosystem. Every time you enter a big box store and there's a camera? Every time you go through a self-checkout and there's a camera? Every time you board a plane? Those cameras are learning to recognize you by your face alone, so no other information is needed. So giving away your face information tied to other information helps those systems make those connections, and enables that information to be bought and sold without your knowledge.
Then it makes no difference if you give PayPal your pic. If you ever go outside or to a store then the battle is already lost. Unless you wear a mask into Walmart and pay in cash.

But thank you for your view of the situation. I appreciate it.
 
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agreed in principle, with the exception that i don't believe most people (actually) care, despite what they casual say/observe
for most folks, (to put it simply) it interferes with what they need to get accomplished in their lives. and like it or not, this is the future present of industrial society. your options are acquiesce or kick-and-scream, but it's a losing battle

biometrics, telemetry, surveillance are pervasive and ubiquitous. perhaps it's possible when using this kind of discretion to prevent getting scammed or info stolen by a private party, but in the bigger picture at levels way above our heads, it's already forgone

anyone wanting to get paid but unable to work cash-only might as well cozy up to these payment processors

Anyone who has the interest and a picture of you (especially a high-res scan of your face, like the ones they automatically take of you at airports now, even though you can decline them) has the ability to identify and track you from video footage anywhere. And that information can be purchased from data brokers. And there are people who are interested in buying it, to track you and your habits in the real world.

It isn't about stealing money from your bank account. It's about you participating in a surveillance economy without knowing or controlling it.

There are companies that pay Uber drivers to carry cameras that scan all license plates those drivers pass, and harvest the plate info, which gets sold to anyone who wants to buy it, including insurance companies and law enforcement, for the purposes of tracking where people drive.

People are now doing the same with faces. And the more data you give away about your face, the more you enable that ecosystem. Every time you enter a big box store and there's a camera? Every time you go through a self-checkout and there's a camera? Every time you board a plane? Those cameras are learning to recognize you by your face alone, so no other information is needed. So giving away your face information tied to other information helps those systems make those connections, and enables that information to be bought and sold without your knowledge.

You may not care. Many people do.
 
Then it makes no difference if you give PayPal your pic. If you ever go outside or to a store then the battle is already lost. Unless you wear a mask into Walmart and pay in cash.

You have the choice as to how hard you make other companies work to get that information from you. Personally, I don't want to live in a world where every machine recognizes me. Nor do I wish to contribute to helping such a system exist.

I actively take measures to not give my information away (biometric and otherwise) when I can prevent it. Especially when I know it's seeking to be harvested without consent (because right now there are few laws preventing it, so there's a secret gold rush happening, and you're seeing it everywhere.)

There are businesses I will not use because of their data practices. And I know when I'm allowed to decline having a photo taken, even with airlines, the TSA, and Border Control (all of which will ask you step in front of a camera without telling you it's optional, and all of which you are legally allowed to deny). I support the OP's actions in this case to 'vote with his wallet', and exercise a freedom he still has.

If you want to freely hand over your information, in detail, to as many people as possible, that's your choice. But you do have choices that affect who you give it to, and how.
 
I don't have too much issue with the ID thing, I was ready to send them that.
Half way through the process they then say you will also be sending a picture of your face, Which I found unbelievably intrusive and unnecessary.

But my REAL issue is the fact that a "trusted" financial institution cut me off completely from my funds without any warning or explanation.
How can I (or anyone else) do business with a bank that is willing to treat you this way.
 
ehhhh it all just depends what we're trying to keep private from whom; lots 'o subjectivity in there.

names, addresses, related family names, criminal/employment/education histories, credit scores aren't hard to source
proxies are no longer effective hiding internet activities (and most proxy services keep logs anyways)
medical history is supposed to be private, but related entitles like third-party billing agencies get sloppy. anyone's that's sent a DNA test to a private company has had that info sold and re-sold

living life in modern civilization means acquiescing to a lot of stuff that we don't regularly consider or to which we have no touch. the notion of control sounds nice and makes us feel good, but it's fiction. i'm not saying "don't fight the battle", just that the only victories are in principle only or are just imaginary placebo-tier cope. it's not worth fretting about either because, again, it's pointless

luckily we're all relatively low-profile schlubs and i'd imagine in most cases, no one/no organization would really care to comb through the details of our lives

Online privacy is not a losing battle if you don't want it to be, and it doesn't even require becoming a luddite. There are ways to protect your online privacy but 99% of people don't care enough to take action.
 
Online privacy is not a losing battle if you don't want it to be, and it doesn't even require becoming a luddite. There are ways to protect your online privacy but 99% of people don't care enough to take action.

It is also not a "all or none" situation. We've had this discussion on another thread. I don't use Facebook for a LOT of reasons. But I still have a cellphone.

Unless you're going to go be a hermit somewhere its impossible.

Its a scale: 100% you're giving your information to anyone and everyone. 0% you're riding you're bike to the middle of Alaska and living off the grid.

Some are closer to the former, some are closer to the latter with their information. Its not absolute.
 
I don't have too much issue with the ID thing, I was ready to send them that.
Half way through the process they then say you will also be sending a picture of your face, Which I found unbelievably intrusive and unnecessary.

But my REAL issue is the fact that a "trusted" financial institution cut me off completely from my funds without any warning or explanation.
How can I (or anyone else) do business with a bank that is willing to treat you this way.
Paypal business practices aside, the reason for the picture is someone might have your ID so adding the photo backs up that you are actually you. I do something like this when buying high dollar stuff on ebay and such when it is shipped. Mostly with vehicles. I ask for a picture not provided in the listing of a weird detail like the underside. If they can provide it then I know they have the actual item in their possession and have not just thieved the pictures from another listing or elsewhere on the internet. I also do google image search if I am really suspicious. I see now Marketplace is doing their own search when an item is listed as i have been getting notifications that the same images are being used in multiple listings and the listing might be a scam. But now I have gotten off topic. Part of the thing with Paypal is they are being required to verify identities by the government. This is for the new tax requirements and tax reporting requirements. I am sure everyone that has an LLC knows they had to provide information to the department of justice on ownership in an LLC as they want to prevent fraud and money laundering by using multiple LLCs. I really think they are trying to close the tax loopholes that major companies have used for years to limit tax liability. I really thing California was pushing for it as you can create an LLC in Montana and have your vehicles registered to your LLC in order to avoid the extreme taxing scheme in California. If you see a Montana license plate in California on an exotic car then it would be a safe bet, they are not Montana tourists.
 
luckily we're all relatively low-profile schlubs and i'd imagine in most cases, no one/no organization would really care to comb through the details of our lives


It isn't about a person combing through the details of our lives that you should be concerned about.

It's algorithms. Like every one that places every ad in front of you. Or the ones used to determine whether or not you get home, medical, or auto insurance, and how much you pay for it (which is determined by how much of a risk you are). Or whether you get a loan, or college admission, or a mortgage, or a jail term. Or in the case of the OP, how likely he is to be participating in business transactions that could put PayPal at legal/financial risk (as every bank is required to follow Know Your Customer (KYC) requirements.)

Any place where a company or institution can make more money and/or reduce risk by statistically knowing more about who you are, where you go, and what you do, has value. In addition to the ability to influence you by presenting you with other information that can be used to guide your behavior more toward something someone else wants you to do, say, or buy. Influence and prediction are a massive part of our economy today.

Institutions not only care about, but are willing to pay handily for this information. (Or just ask you to give it to them for free.) And it happens every day, about every one of us, hidden from our sight. Any information that can be used to predict and/or influence anything about you with any greater accuracy than pure randomness, has value. And it's constantly being collected, aggregated, bought, sold, and used.

So the question is, do you actively want to help hand over more power and control to organizations that don't have your best interests in mind, and are only looking to cover their asses and not yours?

Even if you argue that we're all going to be jailed by the surveillance economy eventually, I'm not going to help build the prison and put the chains on.
 
I am curious as to why people have a hang up with showing ID to PayPal.

You already gave them financial information which is far more valuable than a pic of your ID.
I'm not as paranoid as @andrewb , but for me it's all about minimizing my data, and "need-to-know", both to protect against the abuse of my data, but also data breaches. There's certain information that a company/organization needs from me to do business. If I consider it worth giving them that information, then we'll do business. In the case of Paypal, they need my financial information to deposit and withdraw $$$, but they absolutely don't need my ID or image of my face.

Would you still be here if KLOV required SSN and bank information to use this forum? I trust that Greg wouldn't steal my identity, but if someone hacks the forum software, I'd rather them only have access to my boring posts.

And FWIW, I trust the government not to purposefully abuse my data more than I trust a corporation that can profit off it, and has history of abusing data collected (not sure who I trust more to properly protect it though).

DogP
 
i think we pretty much agree on where we find ourselves.
i guess the only difference is that, while i agree with you in principle regarding the below, from what i've seen and read and what leaks out occasionally in the news ... it's not matter of handing them power because they already got it

obfuscate what can be obfuscated, but, there's no sense in convincing oneself that agency governing one's privacy rests solely within the safe confines of personal choices. if you got a credit score, SSN, and browse the internet, you're in the system and you got shit out there you don't even realize

to bring it back around to OP, this is what i'm saying ... if someone's trying to run a business or make a profit and not dealing in cash ... read those terms and conditions, find a couple payment processors that seem the best (least shitty) and go forth and get money

So the question is, do you actively want to help hand over more power and control to organizations that don't have your best interests in mind, and are only looking to cover their asses and not yours?

Even if you argue that we're all going to be jailed by the surveillance economy eventually, I'm not going to help build the prison and put the chains on.
 
I'm not as paranoid as @andrewb , but for me it's all about minimizing my data, and "need-to-know", both to protect against the abuse of my data, but also data breaches.


There's really no paranoia (which is defined as 'unjustified suspicion or mistrust'). It's just a matter of knowing what's *actually* happening today, and having a desire not to want to actively contribute to it.


- Any information about you, that is tied to you, is valuable. Not just your name and SSN, but anything about your preferences, patterns, habits, desires, activities, etc.

- An information ecosystem exists, whereby governments, institutions, corporations, and companies actively harvest, buy, sell, trade, and use information about you (through data brokers, social media companies, etc), in ways that benefit their interests, and are often against yours.

- Entities around you are constantly asking for information that they simply do not need to know, because it has value (either to them, or who they can sell it to). This information is increasingly used to train AI models, that can correlate, interpolate, and even predict things about you that you are not aware of, from things you might think are meaningless, but have immense value to other people.

- Nobody is going to look out for your interests, rights, and privacy (and the trail of information exhaust you constantly emit), except you.


People REALLY wouldn't like it if any institution, bank, corporation, the police, government, etc, came into your house and wanted to record everything you and your family did, for any reason they want, and then use it for whatever purposes they want, without needing to tell you.

This is really no different. It just happening outside your house. Not in it.
 
You can chargeback through Zelle. nothing is 100% except cash in hand
Nah Zelle itself does not support chargebacks, their website states:

"No, Zelle®​ payments cannot be reversed. With Zelle®​ money moves into an enrolled recipient's account within minutes and cannot be reversed."

Additionally, their user agreement mentions "authorized payments that have been sent to a recipient enrolled in Zelle are final and irreversible, and cannot be disputed."

I suppose you could attempt to file a chargeback through your bank, but they'd likely see it as an authorized transfer based off Zelle's UA and you'd get denied.

There's a good reason scammers use Zelle.
 
I am curious as to why people have a hang up with showing ID to PayPal.

You already gave them financial information which is far more valuable than a pic of your ID.

I am not shitting on anyone for it. I am just curious.
I always thought the issue with Paypal was the recent change to having to report earnings on sales.
 
i guess the only difference is that, while i agree with you in principle regarding the below, from what i've seen and read and what leaks out occasionally in the news ... it's not matter of handing them power because they already got it


That's akin to saying, "These criminals have broken into my home. I might as well tell them about the box of cash under the bed, and give them the combination to the safe."

It amazes me how people in this country are gung-ho about protecting their homes and physical property, and will go through great lengths and justification for that. But they don't give a rat's ass about protecting and defending their information.

And as mentioned above, it's not black and white. Can the government hunt you down and find you if they need to? Sure. There is some freedom we all give up to live in this society. But that doesn't mean you have to give everything to every institution and corporation that wants to take it and profit from it.

Case in point: Sending someone a low-res black and white photocopy of my driver's license is not the same as a 4k-resolution color image of just my face (like what airlines and Border Control want to take any time I'm at an airport.) The latter contains FAR more information, and is more useful for AI training and ID systems than the tiny picture in my passport (which is sufficient for a human to use to verify my identity, but contains far less information).

Just because someone wants some milk, doesn't mean you have to give them the whole cow.

Similarly, don't buy a new car where the manufacturer is turning around and selling your electronically-gathered driving data TO THE FUCKING INSURANCE COMPANIES, who use it to set your rates.

 
Nah Zelle itself does not support chargebacks, their website states:

"No, Zelle®​ payments cannot be reversed. With Zelle®​ money moves into an enrolled recipient's account within minutes and cannot be reversed."

Additionally, their user agreement mentions "authorized payments that have been sent to a recipient enrolled in Zelle are final and irreversible, and cannot be disputed."

I suppose you could attempt to file a chargeback through your bank, but they'd likely see it as an authorized transfer based off Zelle's UA and you'd get denied.

There's a good reason scammers use Zelle.

Make sure the transfer's gone fully through.

I had a Zelle payment appear when selling a pin, released the game, and then the next morning it showed as cancelled.

They had signed up for Zelle, sent a small partial payment to ensure it was working/going to the right place, and that went through fine. After which the rest was sent over in a second transaction.

It turns out the bank auto cancelled the 2nd transfer, or something.

Luckily dude was honest when I called him, and paid via Venmo the next day, but I never knew there was a transitionary state that could be cancelled on Zelle before that.

Cash only from now on...
 
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Setting up a stripe account is pretty simple, probably the route I'd go for website transactions unless you have a Shopify-type site. Zelle & Apple Cash work well for PM-type transactions or for those that don't want to use PayPal.

I might be outside the norm as I rarely do business anymore with people I don't know.
 
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Setting up a strip account is pretty simple, probably the route I'd go for website transactions unless you have a Shopify-type site. Zelle & Apple Cash work well for PM-type transactions or for those that don't want to use PayPal.

I might be outside the norm as I rarely do business anymore with people I don't know.
You go into your Stripe dashboard and create a product. Takes 20 seconds. Create a transaction link for that product. Send the person the link in a PM.
 
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